What business wants: fewer graduates, higher fees, more input

Totally agree with all of this. Students need to be educated in how to sell themselves after university, whilst at university.

The thing is, can universities embed this teaching in their courses or do they leave it to career centres.

I am personally trying to help by setting up an online course which will help students learn some of these skills.

Totally agree with Lammy. There are already enough people in the business world who know how to BS, slope shoulders and pass the buck. These are not skills Universities need to teach.

@ Steve Burford

I wish my university had helped me how to sell myself better, it would have been so useful. I graduated in 2008 and since that time the only support I have ever received is email from prospects.

Wasn't there a girl student who had "learned to sell herself"? In the service industry, in which there was considerable demand, far greater than the demand for learning or scholarship.

@Cardinal Newman. Your comment besmirches the name you have assumed. With an academic poster like you fit for the tabloids, no wonder Lord Mandy wants to cut the funds. Academics have no respect left, can't do their jobs and administrators have stepped in. I agree with Steve Burford. Also we do not need so many graduates in such numbers. The best approach is to merge universities and reduce the numbers and admit only those who satisfy the academic requirements. I would vote for fee increase so that the top 20 universities can separate out from the rest of the clusters. Business then knows which graduates to pick. As for you Cardinal, this is too much, may be you should join the Pope's Curia, a bunch of bullies.

Wow - this is an extraordinarily well-informed debate! Well done to all posters!

I agree that alot of students leave university without the approporiate practical experience and exposure to the right networks and there is a greater need to embed this in the student experience. Elevation Networks (www.elevationnetworks.co.uk) is a student-led initiative that I have seen work in trying to redresss this imbalance through creating networking and employment opportunities for students while at university.

It seems like education policy is changing to match policy on immigration - no thought given to the effects or damage done and no effort made in terms of long term planning.
Education is in trouble and hard courses are slowly being replaced by 'accessible' course which require only average intelligence.
Courses now available:
BSc (Hons) International Spa Management (at University of Derby).
BA (Hons) Events Management (at University of Derby).
BA (Hons) Public Services (Manchester Metropolitan University).
BSc (Hons) Public Services (University of Plymouth).
BSc (Hons) Sport Coaching (Southampton Solent University).
BSc (Honours) Degree in Bar Studies (Management and Entrepreneurship) (Dublin Institute of Technology).

British education is going to slowly lose its outstanding reputation.

As Mr Lammy says, "For my part, I think a good case could be made for revoking the charter of any university that saw itself as being just a production line for clones in business suits." --- I fully concur with this statement, but also don't believe such a statement is inconsistent with the view that there are way too many graduates coming out of British universities. I come to this view not merely on the basis of arbitrary numbers, but on the basis of the overall quality of graduates in recent years. Unfortunately, as the current primary and secondary education system often poorly prepares students for university study, and because there is a finite potential percentage of students who are born with the intellectual gifts needed for success at the university level (in part, affected by the fact that there are so many Brtitish women who continue to drink to excess during pregnancy), the arbitrary 50% target is not realistic and should be scrapped. Where I differ with Mr Lammy is that he appears to argue for education for its own sake, but at the same time, the government insists upon injecting vocational training elements into the university curriculum. You can't have it both ways, as I see it -- either it has intrinsic value or it doesn't.

Quote: BSc (Honours) Degree in Bar Studies (Management and Entrepreneurship) (Dublin Institute of Technology). British education is going to slowly lose its outstanding reputation.

Erm, has Dublin Institute of Technology opened a UK campus then?

Does anyone have any idea what ARG might mean by "employability skills"? What are they? Do they differ according from one kind of employment to another? How long do they take to acquire? Are they different from competence in the discipline the student has studied? If so, why might their development be the concern of the subject teachers rather than of the employers themselves?

Some universities are becoming training centres- BSc (Hons) Public Services (University of Plymouth) may or may not be an easy course but the subject is not inherently easy. I am not aware that Harvard is accused of dumbing down by teaching the subject. BSc (Hons) International Spa Management (at University of Derby) is inherently not a subject of academic inquiry but neither is MB ChB (Edinburgh). BSc (Hons) Bar Studies (Management and Entrepreneurship) almost certainly has more "embedded employability skills" than BA (Oxon) Literae Humaniores and probably has a higher graduate employment rate. Far too many arguments about unwelcome developments in higher education boil down to attacks on courses we don't like the sound of.

Does anyone have any idea what ARG might mean by "employability skills"? What are they? Do they differ according from one kind of employment to another? How long do they take to acquire? Are they different from competence in the discipline the student has studied? If so, why might their development be the concern of the subject teachers rather than of the employers themselves?

BSc Environmental and Countryside Management, BSc Food Science [with or without Industrial Training], BSc Real Estate (all Reading University); MEng Motor Sports Engineering Management (Sheffield University); BSc Film and Television Production, BSc Accounting, Business Finance & Management
[with a year spent in industry], BA Midwifery Practice, BSc Nursing, Evidence-Based Practice (all York University); BA Applied Golf Management Studies, BA Events Management, BA Spa Management with Hospitality, BA Sports Management (all Birmingham University).

Have the old universities been taking the lead here as well? They claim to be leaders everywhere else...

Sorry about the redundant word "according" in my posts above; I thought I'd deleted it. Reading Gary's posting it does occur to me that it's about time we reinvented the polytechnics.

Employability Skills tend to be things like interview skills, presentation skills, cv writing, 'professional development planning' - that sort of thing. These are expected to be embedded into the degree material, thereby displacing material about the actual subject that is being taught.

I was wondering about some of these course titles. Does it mean that other universities teach:- BSc Nursing, Superstition-Based Practice, BA Theoretical Golf Management Studies and BA Spa Management with Indifference?

AGR need people who understand how to get up in the morning, can do basic sums, write in whole sentences, and will do as they're told.

More seriously, the old universities have taught these sort of courses for many years. Reading is celebrating the 40th anniversary of its Real Estate dept. Oxford first taught training courses for the Indian Civil Service in 1875.

Quite right, Gary - I wasn't trying to suggest that there is anything inherently wrong with training courses. Unless universities - new or old - are forced to make them their main concern. Used to be that businesses would train up well-educated graduates (who came with important transferable skills, e.g. an ability to think critically and independently, express themselves effectively and accurately, etc) for their specific industry. This training-up period costs money and business leaders are simply trying to save that money by forcing universities to take on that task (hence the call for a narrow skills focus).

Not only that, but business always "calls" for what they need right now, not what they need in a few years. In fact, if you listened to business, design the course, validate it, resource it, start it then teach it - your product is onstream at least 5 years down the line. In that time, everything about that particular industry will have changed. You can't then go along to the relevant business leaders and say "you said we should deliver so-and-so, and now we have!" - they'll just say "tough - you didn't get any guarantees, did you?"

No, Mr Lammy, a thousand times no! You are not getting away with this. This government has not been promoting"education for its own sake", it has been gutting what used to be the best educational system in the world. What businesses want is to hire educated graduates. People who can organise their thinking. People capable of abstract thought. People who actually turn up for work. There are no crossed purposes here just Labour's dismal failure at the expense of this generation. They provided work for their cronies as administrators, but they have damaged the country in the process. Your smoke and mirror response is not fooling anyone in the business community or any educators who know VERY well that you have been attempting to vocationalise higher education continuously.

Elsewhere there is a thread that explains how my diurnal fellow-traveller didn't after all finance her studies by prostitution. Are we to finance instead the whole of HE by prostituting ourselves to short-term business goals? Have these people proved themselves capable of even running their own businesses (let alone sticking their snouts in ours)?

It is worth noting that the Association for Graduate Recruiters employed 20% of graduates in the 1990's and today that's just 9%. It's a fee-paying association of a number of large organisations with an excellent PR machine. Media and government seem to be seduced by them, but their actual impact on student recruitment is meaningless. Employability and enterprise skills development is important for students, but universities and students themselves have been working hard on this since the 1970's. What's missing is any significant commitment from employers to support students themselves. Employers could be funding and providing both skills training and networking for students, while helping their own non-graduate employees to engage in lifelong learing through work-based learning courses. It would be nice to see AGR doing more, and saying less.

I'd also love to know where this funding is coming for extra career/job seeking advice.

I've recently contacted at least 10 universities, pretty much all of which can't afford a low cost online product to stick on their internal network about helping students find jobs through social media. It's quite ridiculous.

If anyone wants to speak to me about this you should be able to find me if you Google my name or contact me via twitter at twitter.com/SteveBurford

Oh steve don't be a tool - if you are selling a shitty online product to organisations who themselves providers of education and training, careers services and transferable skills development, and still believe that a) you are the only one out there instead of one of literally hundreds of thousands b) that 'can't afford' is a real objection, all you are doing is illustrating how weak your own transferable skills are. Who would want to buy into that?!

God there is some arse talked on this website - if anyone thinks that Higher Education was better under the Tories they really do need their head examined (er sorry, their critical and numerical thinking assessed) Lets not forget that the majority of tory politcians do NOT have numerically competent degrees and are far more concerned with preserving class-based ideas of elitism (that will move us backward into the 1930s) than they are of changing society so that the best have the most demanded from them. We see it all over the shop, but the AGR and Russell Group are (sometimes surprisingly) the greatest proponent of the 'higher the class, the higher the IQ' myth - if you want evidence look at the guff talked in parliament by the tory seniors - they are still floored and intimidated by what they are trying to convince us is a weak leader (I can't help laughing up my sleeve at this - can you imagine Major or Cameron stuttering their way through a real confrontation with Brown!)

Perhaps we should consider assessing "employability" during recruitment, in addition to A level tariffs and personal statements ?

60% of shadow cabinet are public-school educated - 6% of the country are - its all about clubs isn't it - god I sincerely hope we don't have a tory government in next the last thing we need is acceleration of the gap between rich and poor, and people bleating about how 'if one can't afford it ones family must be genetically inferior' and how making everything that gains social advantage more expensive so that it is out of the reach of middle-income families so that the same myth can be used again to justify why its worth paying more, so that tory cronies can earn more and pat themselves on the back even more. Its such an obvious game but we let this minority of people in every few years even though we know what they are like... why??

If employers are not prepared to accept any degree of risk, ownership or responsibility for training, extending to the provision of sponship and placements, then employers have neither credibility nor gravitus in addressing college/university training. In such circumstances, employers can consume their own BS, and accept what the system delivers.

@Sarah"60% of shadow cabinet are public-school educated " , You man
Alastair Darling, educated in one of the best of public schools in Edinburgh, Harriet Harman, in St Paul's Girls Schools,one of the best public schools in London, Ed Balls, in the Private Boys Nottingham High School..? Charles Clarke, once the Home secretary the indpendent Highgate School, .. the Labour list grows!

Why do people like 'To Sarah' automatically assume that anyone who criticises the Tories must be a Labour supporter? Is it because Tory supporters are instinctively tribal dullards whose lack of self-knowledge condemns them to perpetual exploitation by those more powerful than themselves?
As for 'employability' - please read 'conformity to the prejudices and amorality of the chauvinist bullies of big business'. The AGR can go stuff themselves, as can the Tories and New Labour, and particularly David 'Chinless piglet' Cameron, George 'Oik' Osborne, David 'Policy-wonk' Willets, Peter 'Obsessed with his own myth' Mandelson and David 'Totally Lame, Man!' Lammy.

When I began working for an international financial institution upon graduation, they were apprehensive about my prior education in Philosophy. Given the public’s ill-informed opinion about what doing philosophy really involves; or the current sentiment that philosophy is a “self-indulgent” subject not worthy of public funding, little wonder that my employers didn’t think I had earned the “relevant skills” for being the ‘killer shark’ in the boardroom’ which they hoped all their employees aspired to be. Nor did they imagine that I could ever be that savvy sales person who can bring in that precious commodity which every business worships: money!

Within 18 months of my employment I not only became their ‘Star Employee’, saving money by the bucket-load. I did much better at presenting my ideas to business partners, and by the end of my negotiations, getting whatever I wanted from them. My employers soon realised that I could sell sand to the Arabs if I wanted to; be given a complex administrative structure and identify redundant processes within it, and then propose cost-effective and resource-saving solutions; conduct extensive research on clients (which some colleagues initially saw as a waste of time!) before I then went to meet them and give them my spiel. My prior education in philosophy, they had soon realised, had given me tools that none of their costly ‘Business Training’ seminars could teach: the art of researching and examining a topic with the aim of getting a thorough understanding of the issues involved; the identification of gaps and problems within that topic; presenting the topic, its related issues and problems in a coherent, concise and clear manner with a target audience in mind; making a positive proposal and offering solutions to those problems which can close the gaps; and finally presenting my ideas to an audience and verbally defending those views where the audience raised objections, or clarifying where it sought further clarification. In other words, I learnt how to think coherently, be consistent, be clear, communicate effectively, see things the way others do, and then to help others see things the way I did – in short, the art of argument and negotiation; or simply Philosophy. By the end of the 18 months, my employers were begging me - vice-presidents and all - not to leave. But I had to leave. I had to go back to doing that which I’d found far more valuable than making money, wearing shiny shoes, or attending business training seminar – I had to go back to university to do more of that addictive stuff which I love and which they call ‘philosophy’. But I’m glad that by the time I’d left I’d shown them just a little of what an education in philosophy can achieve.

@Cobby Stopford With a name that you have not surprised your posting is a trash.

@Cobby Stopford : What a load of codswallop!!

I wasn't making that point at all - and harriet harman is in fact a great example of how going to public school doesn't quite make you better at everything.. however the point I was making is that the shadow cabinet are pro inequality, and aggressively pro private school as well as being pro the application bias that puts people from private schools into top universities (rather than an intellectual bias which is fine by me). Labour are trying to get the education system to identify the best irrespective of environment, and then pay for institutions that can educate them to a higher level than would be allowed under an 'elitist-by-money-not-ability' system proposed by the tories. The kind of society envisaged by the Tories (Conservatives.. hello.. what do you think that name means?!) is one that stays the same as it was in the past.

@Sarah: You want Brown's social engineeting where 3 Cs gets some one into a medical school becase that candidate comes from a "disadvantaged background" the kind of argument that universities let the Mets have used, and this lead to cooking of drop out and progression figures? Your argument about privilege background is an old argument as private school candidates are shunned by elite universities these days. Even the sons/daughters of graduate parents are discriminated in favour of those whose parents have no university education. Grades do not matter. @Cobby Stopford accuses me of bringing politics here when by your postings you are clearly a Labour Leftie interested in Social Engineering. The Labour have brought in Private initiatives in NHS and in the London Underground Brown's Private initiative has resulted in the faisco we see these days . You must be really deluded in thinking that Labour and Mandy are interested in improving the education. @ Cobby Stopford is deluded in thinking that you are not a politico!!

Check your figures and get back to me.

Hello - the funny thing about 'To Sarah's' comments is that they show how ignorant the knee-jerk (obvious) tory is. If someone enters medical school with 3Cs and graduates with a 1st I would rather that than a daft toff paying his/her way into a lucrative career without having to worry if he/she is doing her job properly because its prejudice not performance that is keeping him/her in the job. The 'cooking of figures' you suggest is as much a reflection of better checking than it is a reflection of more dishonest behaviour - many universities mis-report attendance because many universities have poor admin and the higher up the rankings, the more likely improvements are to be resisted by increasingly arrogant academics. Progression figures actually show that someone from private school is LESS likely to get a good degree if their A-levels are strong than the equivalent from state school. IF you think private school kids are shunned by elite universities, you had better check your figures as Sarah suggests - you are so wrong as to make me feel sorry for you.

@Susan. A leftie sister comin to the aid of another leftie sister. Do you really mean what you say-re: London Metropolittam U. Why was the necessity th cook the figures here? Look at the figures of students wwith very poor academic backgoround admitted.

What's leftie about wanting the best people in the highest contributing jobs? Surely that's about performance and competitiveness. I don't think that right wing politics is necessarity about making sure incompetant rich people stay comfortable in their underperformance is it?

Why are universities so afraid of good organisational practice - so much so they don't want people to even learn it!!!

Alan - I'm not sure that everyone in universities is afraid of good organisational practice - I'd love to see it

Those anonyomous individuals who have noted (so eloquently) that my posting 'is a trash' and 'codswallop' without offering any justification for their opinion are not only bigoted and illiterate, but also ignorant losers whose proudest achievement is probably paying for their conservative party membership. You are imbeciles, brainwashed and exploited by those more powerful than you - without a semblance of dignity left. I would pity you if I wasn't so conscious of the fact that the ignorance you display is so widespread amongst the population at large.

@Cobby Stopford: Is that your real name?!! If it is , your parents should have realised that you do not go very far ! You are right to be in the Bully Brown's party. He has privatised just about everything- PPP in NHS, London Underground and has poured billions proppiing up private banks. With a minimal intelligence that you are exhibiting, no wonder Mandy wants to get rid of you!

I think you will find that 'intelligence' is generally used as an uncountable noun and therefore the expression 'a minimal intelligence' is not English. You also have a tendency to use the present simple tense incorrectly. Why don't you enrol on some in-sessional EFL courses for international students?

@Cobby Stopford . Well another load of codswallop from the aptly named underperforming academic. As for EFL you need it more than any one else with the name you have! Pompous ass like you should have a better name!

'any one' is actually 'anyone', you ignoramus! I am sure your IELTS score is under 3.5.

@Cobby Stopford or better @Codswallop. With a name like yours, you should shut up. Your IQ must be less than 10, as all you contributed was nothing! . You are the kind of person the university should be looking to remove from their staff list. Good byr, the VR is on the way to you.

Cobby Stopford. Why do you sink to the level of hurling personal abuse? Obviously you are in need of medication.

To be fair to Cobby, I think a number of other posts have been a bit rude to him, in particular the person going on about codwallop and his alter ego.

Whoever 'hero' is, I'd appreciate if you'd put your name. In answer to you, the product hasn't even been seen by the universities for them to reject on the basis of budget yet. The email that I sent out was an exploratory one.

Do some research - there are hundereds of products like yours that universities don't but - if you are using the 'evidence' of 10 e-mails to prove that universities don't have the budget you clearly misunderstand the sales process completely.

Okay, do you really think that I mis-understand the sale process that badly? My original comment was an instant/emotional reaction to reading the article, added to the fact of having just come through university and see friends who can't get jobs easily.

After that original email, I now have 3 universities wanting to see the product when it is ready (from one email and no chasing).

If you want to pick on me more then email me please, that would be great.

when my parents came to this country, education wasn't as open to them as their English counterparts..infact merely surviving was pretty damn tough.

then me and my siblings came along. Now I'm trying to put myself in my parents shoes: they sent me to private school, I hava british passport - British born and bred; I'm assuming they thought that I'd have a really good life and a good start in life.

Admittedly the start was good, but to lead where? I personally think they wasted their money...after all, you see I'm still dark skinned and no matter how great my education, this class-thingy, oh so present in this day and age, kinda puts barriers in the way. Not to mention that now I'm competing with my cheaper cousins from abroad....

I, naturally, would always be pro immigration- I wouldn't have the covetable, yet useless to certain sections of society, British passport. But now, I'm starting to grow a little weary and bitter at being reduced to the bottom of the heap; promises of an equal future, smashed.

Forget getting those top jobs, middle management is best I can hope for ( fact)- I'm British! I'm well educated! Nobody's listening... My career is taking a nose dive, and not becuase I'm secretly stupid- I had even opened my own business at the propspect that no-body is actually going to give me a job that allows me to display nor nurture my talents and intelligence.

I thought about going back to uni, but every bloody scholarship is awarded to a non Brit, or from a disadvantaged background; basically awarded to every category that's not me. Got me thinking I wish my parents had stayed in their country......

You see, panel, there's a group of people that sit right in between Tory and Labour's policies- policies that do not address us. Foreign? Half tick. British? Half tick ( depends on the eye of the beholder really...) Educated? Big tick. There are 1st and 2nd generations British born to foreign parentage that do no vote. Maybe you understand why.

Excuse the rant. Tired & disillusioned late 20's early 30 somethings bracket. Ethnicity Black Caribbean ( though we all come from Africa right??) That Black British category makes me laugh- like wtf??? Now I'm confused....

Really there are too many universities-low quality ones in the UK. Time to remove them or better merge them. We do not need so many low quality university graduates coming from these places.