Fears for UK research as postgraduate rise is largely a foreign affair

"Why are we not getting UK students to take up these courses and potentially become academics".....

Could it be because getting money out of the research councils to fund British PhD students is like trying to squeeze blood from a stone? And, in the event that such money does become available, that the standard of British graduates applying for these places is appalling?

I hate to say this, but in most cases the students from overseas are better educated, more motivated and pay higher fees. Why wouldn't we take them over home students?

"Why are we not getting UK students to take up these courses and potentially become academics".....

Could it be because getting money out of the research councils to fund British PhD students is like trying to squeeze blood from a stone? And, in the event that such money does become available, that the standard of British graduates applying for these places is appalling?

I hate to say this, but in most cases the students from overseas are better educated, more motivated and pay higher fees. Why wouldn't we take them over home students?

My theory is this:

In other countries, a PhD is a mark of esteem and is a stepping stone to a financially rewarding career. In the UK, however, a PhD is financially costly and a labour of love offering little rewards. In my department there is a job advertisement for a personal assistant/admin clerk at a salary of £38k per annum. This requires merely a bachelor's degree and some work experience. The postdoctoral researcher position (requiring a PhD minimum, an excellent publication record, and extended lab experience) is a salary of £28k per annum. PhDs in the UK are not valuable financially, and from what I've heard this is different in other countries.

It's not too difficult really to sort this out - the reality is that certain institutions see themselves as increasingly international with a weaker connection to UK society. These institutions should be reminded of the considerable subsidy that they enjoy from the taxpayer. I would suggest that institutions should set aside a proportion of the income (say 20%) they enjoy from international recruitment for initiatives to improve postgraduate opportunities for the UK/EU population. This 'international recruitment tax' could be used to fund research skills training and PhDs. Yours, Hoggie.

Hint: computer technicians in university departments (many without any HE degree) are paid more than me. And I have to be extremely happy because I got a job. Roughly 8 in 10 postdocs - after years of postdocs after the PhD - don't get any permanent job. The Government is so worried about the situation that is planning to cut millions of pounds for our sector.

Here are three interconnected thoughts:

1. Universities and departments need a constant supply of PhD students. This is because: a) they need the income from tuition fees - especially from foreign students; b) the quantity (not quality) of PhD students is important for the RAE/REF; c) in order for undergraduate courses to run, the departments need PhD students to act as cheap teachers.

2. There are very limited job opportunities for newly qualified aspirant academics. This is because: a) the market is flooded (see above); b) the RAE/REF is functionally biased against said aspirants by valuing actual achievement over potential (making it near impossible to get a job without spending years post-PhD on publications); c) departments have no incentive to hire early career lecturers when they can simply have more PhD students to do the same teaching on the cheap.

3. Outside of academia and related specialist professions, the PhD is not highly valued by general employers. This is due to: a) a lack of understanding or imagination by said employers (the spectre of 'overqualification' rears its head); b) a residual anti-intellectualism in British culture (e.g. the idea that highly educated people are necessarily without common sense, or are arrogant and pretentious.

Without a fundamental change in one of these factors, this unsatisfactory situation will surely continue unabated.

I really don't see why we need more PhD students. As several have already pointed out, the job market is already ridiculously oversaturated. What's the problem? Oh yes, that's right, university coffers would be missing out if we had less PhDs, why on earth should innocent PhDers pay for the UK HE system outof their own personal funds with no reward at the end of it, the government needs to fund unis properly so the great PhD swindle can stop..

In two decades time, after the steady flood of the overseas postgrads have returned home, establishing and populating their own institutions, their countries will outstrip us in the knowledge economy. UK Plc will end up simply staffing the outsourced call centres of other nations.

And it will all be because of a system that forces UK universities to effectively pawn the family silver in return for short-term gain of overseas fees.

China must be laughing at us - at last, it is payback time for the Opium Wars - they have got us hooked on overseas fees.

I do not think the relationship between the number of home and international students is problematic; the high number of international students indicates the strength of a British education, whether perceived or real. However, the 'residual anti-intellectualism in British culture' that Jimbo points out is to blame, particularly with regards to the amount of money spent on higher education; unfortunately, most people see it as expenditure rather than investment, while other countries see education as intrinsic to their personal and national identities. The problem with low numbers of home postgraduate students is simply to do with the amount of money available. I attended a postgraduate open-day at the University of Liverpool before Christmas, and they said that the success rate for AHRC funding was 12% for masters level and 9% for PhD; this is low, but you have to remember that this only represents the number of people applying for funding not the actual number of students applying for the course, which suggests the problem is even worse. British students cannot escape this mess either as the government provides absolutely no funding to study abroad unlike most other European countries...

As someone who is currently looking into a Humanities PhD, the number of international students hasn't really been an issue for me. The problem is the lack of direct university funding. International scholarships and bursaries far outnumber those for UK students. Having working in student recruitment at a top Russell Group university, I can honestly say that senior management (and by that I don't mean the academic staff) would be happy to recruit an entire course of international students as there is no imposed limit on international student recruitment. One way of doing this is to offer scholarship incentives. In 2010/11, one particular faculty offered 6 funding opportunities- 4 were available to International students and the remaining 2 were open to UK/EU students. Unless things change, the number of UK PhD students is going to keep decreasing and only those with money will be able to undertake postgraduate research.

I am sure that unlike overseas students the UK students are more educated about the lack of career progression for UK-based academics due to substantial lack of research council funding. This cannot be decoupled to the motivation of home students to consider academic career. Radical changes in research funding council, which are not limited to availability of PhD scholarships are critical before the brain drain gets beyond manageable levels. I have been trying to recruit a home student in sciences for almost 10 months and it may be that I will loose the project as the funding is tied to UK-home student.

@Dan Brown: "I will loose the project as the funding is tied to UK-home student". Loose?!!!!!!

Alex said "after the steady flood of the overseas postgrads have returned home, establishing and populating their own institutions, their countries will outstrip us in the knowledge economy"
This is true because they are forced they over-run). Why not convert these overseas high achievers into British high achievers, and ease the immigration restrictions on them? Having completed a PhD, they have proven that they can adapt to UK life and language, they aren't likely to require social welfare, and they will contribute to the British economy in many ways.

It is definitely the bad and ugly time for everybody concerned. A more open and competitive environment is needed, where the level of accountability and responsibility is installed in every domestic student. Most foreign students are given preferential training compared with their UK counterparts Fact. How many UK researchers who
have published in Nature and high end journals are passed over by outdated old farts who are waiting for the pension.

1 cut the number of emeritus professors
across the entire university spectrum by 95%

2 Put an age cap on the principal researcher 50

3 All Uk researchers between the ages
20-40 who work on temporary contacts should be allowed to apply for funding

One thing please wake up you bunch of outdated fools

Fred, I don't understand why you give the 20-40 age range, it is not just the 'young' on temp contracts as researchers. The average age in my old dept. ( post doc wise) was 36 a few years ago. I was over 40 (as was a mate) and one of the team was in their late 40s.

I am sure that this situation will get worse as elderly post docs cling onto their departments.

The system and the public does not want well qualified people doing hard research. If it did it would not treat them so badly.

Well, I am not sure what the fuss is about. The approximately £12k yearly stipend is good enough to scare away all local students to undertake a PhD course in the UK. One of the established newspapers did a calculation that people can only live reasonably basic but acceptable standard with £13,400. Does any of your brain make sense of that?

On the other hand, I have learnt about many overseas students went through hell by either a lack of adequate supervision or misguide by the professors/lecturers. Some supervisors kept bouncing their ideas back and forth, giving critical opinions that totally leave students in more doubts rather than providing a clear direction where the research should head to. I have seen many UK postgraduates were given easier projects with much clearer directions and tasks. Just recently a foreign student who had published not less than 5 papers in the established journals and conferences failed his viva in the UK.

Overseas students often have to work much harder in order to be recognized.