New definition of ‘legal battle’

What is wrong with a ballot system: students indicate a 1st, 2nd, 3rd pref, and where there are conflicts the names go into a hat... The system that almost every other university seems to run?

Back when I was a Philosophy finalist at a different university, we had a first come, first served system too... but conducted via e-mail.

This is absolutely appalling. What a stupid idea and what a dreadful system to subject the students to. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would anticipate that students would respond to a first come first served system by getting there as early as possible. Shame on you, Brunel University.

As a Brunel law student who joined the back of a very long queue at 3am, I have to take issue with the spokesman who effectively said that all supervisors are equal. They are not - or, if they are, then I can only say (in common with the others who sat in the cold and rain) that some supervisors are more equal than others. If they really all provided the same quality of supervision, do you seriously think we'd have stayed up all night to get one of the 'big five'?

Have we really reached the stage in higher education where students are fighting each other to receive quality? The fault lies with the government for letting in so many students and forcing universities to take on staff who are not suited to the taxing demands of higher education. Will students have to kill each other before we realise the folly of the current situation exemplified by the Brunel dissertation fiasco?

OK I'm officially fascinated by this. Just who are the 'big five' in the law department at Brunel who have inspired students to stay up all night and fight for their supervision? I'd like a feature on them and what it is that they do that attracts such devotion in these law students, please Times Higher.

I'm not sure if I missed this...but are these supervisors the best or the ones easiest to get high marks from?

Who are the rubbish academics? Name and Shame!

Now I'm a bit more rested from this Greek tragedy, I'm back again. For your information, the 'big five' aren't the most generous markers by any means. They care about us, they push us, they challenge us, they inspire us and they always (and I mean always) have time for us. But they have standards. I won't name and shame the rubbish academics, but I'd gladly name the ones that are great.........

Like Ed I am truly fascinated by this story. What next? Replacing vivas with some sort of fight club type contest? Promotion interviews under Marquis of Queensbury rules?

I do wonder what's going on at Brunel. First the VC is accused of megalomania, and now law students are fighting. A university is essentially about 2 things: teaching and research. The former is bread and butter and requires operational excellence, that is measured by, amongst other things, the annual NSS. The later requires creativity and innovation and is measured by research income and the RAE. If a university cannot do both these things properly it should stop trying and concentrate on one only. There are way too many students at most universities, student-teacher ratios are appalling and all this at a time when students have to incur huge debts to pay for this mediocrity. UK universities only have themselves to blame for this by being so craven and not fighting the tragic expansion of student numbers. Bigger is not better. School by school., course by course, Brunel needs to decide if it can really deliver student satisfaction. If not it should stop offering the course. There is no future for Brunel offering the mediocrity that these law students are experiencing. Brunel needs to be operationally excellent in its teaching.

I think the point is missed. The issue is not ‘getting the best supervisors’ at all, it is well known amongst all students that all members of the school are experts, researchers, and reading academics, 90% of submission from Brunel Law School in 2009 RAE achieved international standards. The issue for students in the queue today was rather getting a supervisor who is closer to their chosen dissertation topic, which was unnecessary as the role of supervisor is only to guide the submission procedure, not to tell you what to write. It was disheartening to see so many fellow classmates compete at such level, but I guess this represents the competing nature of the law as an academic subject and the future career prospects it holds in the legal sector be it private or public.

*2008 RAE sorry

I don't agree that it necessarily follows that teaching at the Brunel Law School is mediocre in its entirety. The problem, as I see it, is that there must be some outstanding teachers in the school (perhaps the 'big five' to whom 'Sleepy' refers) and others that are less able, or less caring. This lack of consistency is surely what has polarised the issue and resulted in the law dissertation supervision riots. Simple supply and demand, surely? Does Brunel Law School recognise and reward excellence in teaching and learning? Probably not. Should it? Absolutely.

T states that: 'The issue for students in the queue today was rather getting a supervisor who is closer to their chosen dissertation topic, which was unnecessary as the role of supervisor is only to guide the submission procedure, not to tell you what to write.' If you are a supervisor of dissertation students, then I feel sorry for them - they are being short-changed terribly. The role of a supervisor should be to do much more than 'guide the submission procedure' - students can get this info from a document or from admin staff. The point is to advise on matters of substance, to use one's expertise to direct students to relevant literature, to point out potential shortcomings in their analysis and arguments, and so on. I do this for all my dissertation students - they deserve no less. Shame on you!

The opposing views of Academicus (with whom I agree) and T probably sum up the problem that occurred today with the law students at Brunel. Some people take T's position that they have done a good job of supervision by guiding from a distance whereas others get stuck in as Academicus advocates and, in the words of Sleepy, inspire and challenge their students. Presumably, it was securing the supervision of the latter that caused the fights today. It was interesting that Sleepy also mentions that the most popular supervisors care about and have time for the students. What a shame that these basic characteristics are not universal.

Just for the records, there were no riots, or fights the facts of today have been very exaggerated, and I challenge the source(s) behind this article. Yes the submission took place, and yes students queued up very early (out of own choice), everyone got a supervisor and are now generally happy about the result. If we are starting to question universal characteristics, I think we need to start criticising how and why our higher education system has come to such state.

As another student in the queue who arrived at 11pm and stayed till 9sm I do not fully agree with this article and its emphasis on 'unpolpular supervisors'. After spending 10 hours in the cold I am now feeling unwell due to this experience. The simple fact is Brunel need to enforce a better system. One would think the law department of all departments would be capable of logical thinking.

now thats what im talking about...brunel..

It was totally unprofessional on part of Brunel Uni the way the situation was handled....

The rush for education in premier institutes is truly taking a very scary turn. Even in India, we can see so many people give such a response to first come first serve admission to top of the line institutes. In some cases, this saga extends to the schools that are not so reputed as well. But what people dont realise is that a vocation in the creatives makes a great career too... that is just as high paying and satisfying. In Pune, thus, educationists like Dr. Nigavekar have come together to form an institute called Seamless Education Academy, or SeamEdu. This institute offers exceptional faculty and infrastructure for students aspiring to train in Animation, Broadcast Media, Sound Engineering, Radio Jockeying and Gemmology. The institute even offers international internships to make the students industry ready. you can probably visit their blog www.seamlesseducationacademy.blogspot.com to know more...

I was there in the queue. I started at about 1.30 and there were probably 50 students in front of me. People were turning up all night and there was a lot of nastiness and shuffles when people tried to join in the middle of the queue because a friend had saved them a place or when people left the queue to go to the toilet and then people didn't want them to rejoin in the same place. It all got hysterical. We were all cold and tired and tempers were frayed. It isn't an experience I would ever want to repeat. The security guards didn't help. They were rude and manhandled people. The system is awful and the way that university handled it at the time and now afterwards, when apparently we are to blame for exaggerating the problem and being ridiculous by queueing all night just makes things worse. People are generally very unhappy even if they did get the supervisor they wanted because the whole experience was sickening.

I was in the queue as well. I joined at about 6 o clock after recieiving many phone calls from friends telling me to come down as I would not get my supervisor. Having arrived, the place was a tip (Students fault) - there were duvets, red bull cans, chairs, shisha pipes etc and 100 people ahead of me. Looked like there had been a riot! The people to blame for this were the students whom took it upon themselves to queue up the night before at 11pm. Having gone to front of the queue to sign my name down on a list I wasn't surprised to see some idiotic girls at the front. (The law school sent an email saying that no one should arrive before 7) Security made matters worse by kicking out people for queue jumping (Security obviously had to do this). Technically, they should not have done so as there should not have been a queue before 7. It was first come first served after 7! If I had arrived 2 weeks before I was meant to and stayed there outside, would I have been the first person there? Even though it stated that you could start queuing at 7. Madness!

I'm amazed that only a bland Brunel spokesman has commented. Where are the official comments from the Head of the Law School or his Deputy? Do Professor Rahman and Dr Xanthaki have something to hide? Or Dimitrios who instigated the system? What have they got to say? The student law society president sounds balanced, open and sensible. Good for her for not being afraid to speak out! It's no wonder that Brunel's NSS is plummeting when there are such difficulties and the School says and does nothing.

I was in the queue from 3 in the morning and it was chaos but its not right to blame the students because we were only responding to the situation. We werent told not to queue before 7 at all. We were told that the building wouldnt be open before 7 which is not the same thing. The other thing is that all the staff in law knew this was going to happen because students were telling them what time they were going to start to queue. If they knew it was going to happen but did nothing to prevent it then how is it the students fault. It is a really stupid system but they knew that because students last year queued half the night as well.

I think in fact this shows that the students have a lack of confidence in their own abilities. The student quoted who said that the difference between 2/1 and 1st is the student is dead right. The problem is that many students (in my experience) don't have that much interest in their subjects and have not done much work over the years. When it comes to dissertation time they don't really have much that they are that interested in and have not really engaged much with any literature. They tend to feel quite panicky about the dissertation as it is meant to be their own work and they don't have a reading list, lecture series etc to guide them. Thus the big focus on the supervisor.

The email clearly stated not to arrive before 7 and also that you would not be let into the building until after 7!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You would think law students would be able to read

The point is that at Brunel on the one hand every student is OBLIGED to do a dissertation on their 3rd year and on the other hand, there are not enough experts in the dissertation topics that are most popular among the students (partly because they perceive them as easy). On top of this, many students are far too week to write any valuable dissertation at all and would benefit much more if they would be given an option to study 1-2 taught modules for the same 40 credits, instead of the dissertation. But it looks like Brunel management is very reluctant even to discuss such option that could resolve the situation or at least essentially alleviate it.

An alternative analysis is that there are a few leading academics in the department and many which could be described as something less than this. Undergraduates are not idiots and can work out who are the Department's "big hitters". As commitment to undergraduate teaching/dissertation supervision varies widely students are forced to fight amongst each other for quality. No amount of carping about needy undergraduates looking for easy options will change this.

I was in the queue in the early hours of Thursday morning. First of all I did not witness any fights at all and never even heard people mention that there had been physical altercations. Perhaps Melanie Newman and the Times should be more cautious before stating such things from such a source as a (clearly) agrieved student. I do find the library image associated with this article to be very inappropriate seeing as it was not taken at the scene and looks more like a fight outside a nightclub. We were emailed not to arrive before 7am but in reality, everyone knew that people would start queueing early. I spoke to a few friends from the previous year who told me that the earliest people arrived to queue in 2008 was around 3-4am. It just so happens that this year a few individuals took it upon themselves to arrive between 8-11pm and as word got out that the queue had already started, students told their friends and it snowballed from there. I had planned to arrive at 5am but was told by my friends that the queue was already building so made my way down early I agree that the perception of the dissertation supervisor's role had been vastly over exaggerated by the students. We all knew or had access to the university regulations regarding the supervisor's guiding role in guiding our dissertations and I have been aware of this policy since I started my first year. We were all told to prepare more than one dissertation proposal topic in case our first-choice of supervisor were not able to be accomodated. Furthermore in any queue system with a limited number of choices, some people are bound to be disappointed. This is the real world after all. I accept that the policy of first-come first-serve was less than ideal but the entire situation was excaserbated by some extremely poorly behaved students, some of which was a disgrace. Perhaps some of my fellow students would be better served in learning to act like sensible and polite people before even considering a career in the legal profession.

At the end of the day, the system was instigated to avoid any one supervisor having too many students under their wing!- It is there to make sure that an equal amount of students are allocated to each supervisor otherwise dissertations would be IMPOSSIBLE to mark! I don't think it's a bad system at all. People who end up fighting over it need to realise that the same amount of energy they waste argueing and bickering, that same energy can be put into the dissertation regardless of what supervisor you have! ...When i was at brunel few years ago, I never got my first choice, but I didnt stress about it, i just found another supervisor. I still got a good grade at the end of it... in the end it all comes down to how much work you put in yourself...

This isn't the fault of brunel or the law school faculty. it's ridiculous students who queued up at a silly time when they were fully informed not to begin queueing until 7am. Yes, last year students queued up for "half the night" as someone put it but we were not there from 11pm the night before and there was certainly no fights over supervisors, queue jumping or any other trouble. rather it was a peaceful queue where everyone respected the right of the student in the queue agead of them. It's a disgrace how current students are blaming the lecturers for this. final year law students would be expected to know that queueing all night OUTSIDE the law building would cause them to feel cold and tired. i wouldn't have thought lecturers needed to put up warning signs about that. the system has worked quite well all the years it has been running-except this year. Clearly it needs to change but the first come first served system was introduced so students would have a greater say as to who their supervisor would be. the staff and particularly Dimitrios should not be blamed just because they did not forsee that students would wait all night (of their own accord) and get cold and tired to the extent that they would fight with eachother and generally cause chaos. Brunel has some excellent lecturers who facilitate the needs of their students and help them achieve the best results possible but as a past student i have to say that the difference between a 2:1 and a 1st lies with the hard work of the student and not with the tutor.

This is quite possibly the most stupid article I have ever read. The same system was in place when I was there. No one fought, smoked or pushed in. We had respect for one another. It is simply outrageous to blame the University, and indeed individual supervisors, for the disgusting behaviour of this year's students. Each and every one of them should be ashamed of themselves. I wonder what future employers would think of this behaviour!?

It was truly ridiculous, I was in the queue since 1am, some stupid girl at the front who started a list and her friend who does not even go to the university were the cause of most the arguments and fights!

I graduated last year from Brunel and we had to go through this same process. Yes I agree that waking up and queuing from 5am was very annoying, however our year managed to do it without any problems so I think in this instance the students are also to blame. Why would they get into physically fights? I think they themselves need to grow up. Also from talking to other students who are there this year it does seem that this year people did go a bit too far, i mean queuing from 8pm last night?? lol Yes arguably a better system by Brunel should be implemented however at the same time the fights and chaos amongst them is something which they need to personally take responsibility for. If our year and all past years have been able to do it then what makes this year so different? the maturity levels which they clearly lack would be the answer

As a Brunel Law graduate, its really sad to read this. To be honest the system is quite fair. Having a good supervisor is important but students should know that the supervisors DO NOT write their dissertations. My very good friend didn't see her disso tutor the whole year and still managed to score a high 2.1. I didn't get my first choice supervisor but Law Department had provided students opportunities in every possible way. For example we were allowed to see other lecturers in regards to our disso for advice and there was no restrictions to how many lecturers you see. You could email or book appointment with any of the lecturers/ supervisors. Its sad that 3rd year students failed to behave in a sincere manner and its even worse when people blame the Department for their own bad behaviour. To be honest the law department can not be blamed for anything behaviour or problems that happened before 7am because they were told that they could not be seen before that. One piece of advice to everyone....Please end this useless argument of blaming the system. You are just getting your anger out. The system worked perfectly for all the other years....So give up

I was present at the queue and actually found the atmosphere to be quite friendly if a little competitive......THERE WERE NO FIGHTS! People queued because we knew there had been queues the year before. And people queued because as others have said, some lecturers are more popular than others, because they clearly care about the students and no matter what will try to do their utmost for them. That is the main reason peole wanted certain lecturers......and with a first come first serve policy queueing is inevitable. The fact that there was an email saying there will be no point in queuing before 7am is irrelevant. If you are closer to the front in the queue you are more likely to get the lecturer of your choice. Some people were just more determined to get the lecturer they wanted. I do not believe that the students are to blame, and the students I met acted well. Everyone was merely responding to the policy that had been put in place. And I hope next year students will not have to resort to such measures again.....this policy MUST be changed.

I was shocked when I read this article, and not because of what happened but because of what was written! Yes there were arguements and protests about this list but I took part in this queue waiting to get a dissertation tutor and it was not half as bad as people have made it out to be. There were no fights, no scuffles, the security did not "manhandle" anyone. The security were as calm as they could have been, with indecent and disrespectful students shouting and swearing at them to revoke the list. Yes we queued, and yes there was an end to the queue (as there is with any queue), what makes people think that it would have been different if we were more sensible about the time we showed up? We would have "queued" at 5, 6, 7 in the morning, it was a first come first served basis, of course there would have been a queue. This list would have been conducted at any time of the night as more and more turned up, to be honest it was the fairest way given the circumstances. Wouldn't it have been unfair if you were there at 7 waiting in the queue, one of the first there, about 70 people behind you and some smart-arse comes out after handing in the propsal claiming that they used the back door to get in the building. I'm just appauled at how a student can have so much anger that they are prepared to jepordise their university and the staff they hold for a dissertation tutor. You cannot put blame on a system that has previously worked but as people have stated above there must be change. Every establishment has its problems from time to time and this is no exception here, one can only take it in and improve. and btw that picture is shit.

I was there from 11:30pm the night before and got who I wanted. I saw no one throw punches, no one pass out - just lots of cold and tired people. The system is stupid and this report is even more poorly researched than a third rate dissertation!

There were no fights. No-one fainted. No security guards manhandled people. It hardly rained. It wasn't that cold really. There are no skinheads in our course like in the picture. There was only some organisation once the Law staff arrived. This is supposed to be the Times literary suppliment?

I graduated this year and was part of the 5am queue last year. I got who I wanted as a tutor and for me it was worth the queueing (because my tutor helped a lot compared to others who did not). The dissertation is worth 1/3 of the degree which is a huge amount, hence the tension around getting a good tutor. However, the work is your own and you get the grade depending on how much effort you put in. There are some lecturers who refuse to check a chapter (despite it being said in the guideline that they will) of course people would want to avoid such lecturers since noone really wants to hand in a massive piece of work without not even a paragraph being checked/approved beforehand. There are other lecturers who don't help at all-again another reason why people wanted to avoid them. Maybe if the dissertation didn't count for such a huge amount and if all staff provided the same standard of help this issue would not arise. But the system needs to change even if it means taking the choice away from the students.

"This is supposed to be the Times literary suppliment?" - for a potential lawyer, you don't pay much attention to detail, do you?

To all who are blaming students (in particular 'S'), if anything the queueing all night just goes to show how dedicated and committed students are to do well as the dissertation is worth so much. I agree queueing from is 7pm the night before is extreme and unecessary but it snowballed out of control (there was no fights and security tried their best to bring some order). Some people have the audacity to comment on here that Brunel students are to blame and that they are weak/ take no interest in law, when it's quite the opposite- if we didn't care we would have been warm & comfortable indoors having a good nights sleep!

This all started becasue of the two fat 'ladies' (you know who you are) who started queueing from 7pm! WTF is wrong with you?!

This all started because of the two fat 'ladies' (we all know who they are) who started queueing at 7pm! WTF is wrong with them?!

As a brunel student, who queued from 12pm to 9am, I have to say this article including some of the comments made, has spirraled out of control. There were NO punching or fighting and NO ONE collapse!!! The students who commented for this article are just bitter and it is just a shame they way in which they are criticising the University in which they are about to gain a degree from! This system has been put in place by an excellent professor at Brunel, who believes that students should have the right to choose a dissertation tutor who is well suited for the dissertation topic that the student wishes to do. There is simply no other way than placing a 'first come first served' system. If students were randomly given a dissertation that they would still complain that they did not get the tutor they wanted!! Students did NOT queue because some supervisors could “make or break” a dissertation more than other supervisors. Students who think their dissertation tutor will do their work for them are really in for a shock. The whole point is to pick a dissertation tutor who is well suited for the area of law you want to write your dissertation on. NO security guards manhandled people!! AND There are NO skinheads in our course like in the picture!!!

There were no fights, only some lazy journalism from the Times. We queued up from midnight, out of our own choice. Our group had a good laugh; felt like a camp night.

There are no skinheads like that at brunel so why is that photograph there?

Brunel University's Law School has many excellent professors and teachers most of them have completed their PHD in law. Students who are claiming some teachers are not so good are either blind or stupid but probably both! How can you (an unqualified undergraduate) make comments on a teacher who has years of experience and such high levels of qualification! You do not have have the right nor the intelligence to make such a comment. All the teachers are excellent and provide excellent teaching! if you are dissatisfied you know where the exit is! First come first served system is the fairest way of picking a supervisor with the same interests as your dissertation topic! Supervisors do NOT do your dissertation work for you! Students queued because they wanted the supervisor who had interests in the area of their dissertation topic! If you wanted the same you should have gotton out of bed yourselves!

No one had T-shirts on that night, and that's for a fact. Which Times archive is that picture from exactly?

Shame galore! 1) Shame on times higher for publishing half-truths and lies without verifying facts - there was no fighting and no fracas at any time. 2) Shame on melanie newman for writing such trash as wouldn't even be seen in a trasy tabloid. 3) Shame on the cowards who use the cover of anonimity to libel excellent, kind, and well-loved profesors (which those being maligned here are just that). I wonder what your real agenda is. I doubt that the person who narrated the story to times higher is a brunel student (how many students know who the co-director of undergraduate studies is, less of all, how to spell his name?). whoever you are, stop being a coward, and own up! 4) Shame on the zenophobe referring to the "greek tragedy". You are racist. Most of us love brunel and love our profesors. We got lots of personal help yesterday chosing our topics and supervisors. those profesors spent a lot of their time helping us, and how do we pay them back? by darkening their good names in public? If I was them, I would sue times higher for libel, since a lot of what they printed are lies. If some of you whingers spend half as much time preparing your dissertatins and classes as you spend here, you wouldn't need to queue up at cold hours. The queues say more about your pathetic neediness than it says about our profesors. Now that you got supervisors you think you want, then you will get a first? You guys need to get a life!

Love the last comment made by Waz!

I am still queuing :-))

This is yet another example of poor communication on the part of Brunel law school. A warning was sent out that the building would not be open until 7.00am and that NO students should arrive on the premises prior to this. However, when I arrived at 6.00am, the security staff were seemingly oblivious to this and had made no attempt to move the large gathering of students on. Further, they had even helped to administer a list devised by a student as to the queuing arrangements - since when has a student had authority over other students to determine their chances of embarking on a successful dissertation? From these facts, it can be presumed that the law school went to no effort to inform security of these arrangements beforehand. The process has been abused by those who live on campus to the detriment of other students who are not in this position. It's no surprise therefore, that the majority of students who didn't get their first choice supervisor or topic, lived off campus. In fact, purely on the basis of this process, I have now lost both my topic and supervisor and have reverted to a topic of far lesser interest to myself. On the morning in question, the situation was so bad that we were being handed forms on the spot and were told to think of new topics due to the increasing number of staff whose spaces had all been filled. In summary, it seems like we have been penalised for obeying the rules and arriving at a reasonable time to submit our proposals. Those who ignored the advice of the law school, and were a public nuisance (the law building itself is in a residential area) have ended up with their first choice topic and supervisor. The system was meant to have been changed last year but clearly this hasn't been the case. Based on this year's events, how can there be any debate as to its standing? It clearly needs to be removed and replaced with more common sense alternatives which other posters have suggested. Brunel law school isn't a bad law school at all and there are certain members of staff who are a credit to it and an inspiration to students. However other members are far less enthusiastic about teaching and are often too preoccupied with their own research agendas. Maybe it's time these staff members realise that we pay tuition fees which fund their research and should adjust their attitudes accordingly.

Would you care to elaborate on what you think is a more common sense alternative than first come first served? last come first served? anybody with sense knows that any system you come up with will have winners and losers. if the losers are sore losers then we will have this kind of stupid and futile public debate. us students can't even submit our essays on time, and we will make another system work better? i feel ashamed to be in class of 2010 and i hope no employer reads all this trash. as a former student says above, this system has worked for past students, why are we the only ones in the history of brunel law school who it can't work for? maybe because some of us are still BABIES. shame on us.

i was near the end of the queue, when the admin staff arrived i only had to wait an hour before choosing my supervisor. The system is fine. Maybe change the time? Second point is Security had read the email and were stupid just like most students who thought that the email solely said that you would not be let in to the building before 7. Note well and read this carefully you illiterates, the email also said not to arrive before 7!

why the hell and who do you think you are adding an extra person to the queue? You caused the problems with your silly friends at the front of the queue. Silly girls. Agree with previous post.

hey guys i might start the queue for next year tomorrow because i want to be a freak to :-)

There is no need to cover up what happened for the sake of trying to maintain a reputable name for the university. We pay for our services and therefore should not in any account be made to settle for second best. The dissertation makes up for 1/3 of the overall mark and getting the right supervisor immensely helps with securing a good grade. Our grades should not be compromised through no fault of ours but the inadequacy of suitably qualified supervisors. There is no doubt that this system is flawed. The situation could have been avoided if a cleverer system worthy of being borne by law lecturers was in place. As one of the students who queued up for hours , I can not stress enough on how disappointed I am in Brunel University. As if the queueing was not bad enough, when my turn finally came I was informed I could not get a supervisor for neither my chosen topic nor the two alternatives I had prepared. I therefore had to be allocated to a supervisor who did not feature on the matrix as specialising in my chosen topic. Sadly, this is a repetition of last year's events one would have thought a better idea could have been thought of. A very dissappointed student

I need to get a life myself and go to bed (have my disso to work on tomorow, lol) but the picture posted on this article is ridiculous. that is not a picture of brunel university or anywhere near it. maybe its a picture of times higher premises, and their journalists? this is even worse than shit. how can you claim to be a respectable paper and post a picture that is a COMPLETE FABRICATION? what game are you playing at? shame on you again times higher, your worse than the Sun, and shame on you again melanie newman. the time higher editor should be sacked.

Mrs Rodrigues don't be a sore loser. no-one is guaranted a supervisor of their choice. i didn't get alex but i'm not sore about it. at least i got someone - and i'm sure he is as good as any other. what grades i get in the end are entirely up to me, not my supervisor. after all, he can only refer me to relevant reading - but i have done ELIM and i have spent 2 years here, have attended all the skills training, and know how to use westlaw and lexis and google (no wikipedia by the way). so what more can i want?

i had a great time made new friends and met lots of new people and actually when i came there was a lot of humour and good spirit from most people at the end of the queue :-)))) Also,does anyone know the name of that guy who was wearing the red t shirt, he had longish black hair, pretty cute. i spoke to him for a little bit but never got his name :-((

This message is directed at the author by the name of tired you have stated that the e-mail sent asked students not to turn up before 7, what the hell where you doing there at 6 O’clock? I suggest you learn how to read before you start slandering your fellow students. And further more calling some of your female colleagues idiotic shows your lack of maturity and perhaps a little bit of jealousy.

I was there at 6 o clock becuase of immature people arriving at 8pm the day before!!! My message clearly stated that I arrived after receiving many phone calls telling me to come down and queue, as there were 100's of people now ahead of me and I would not get my supervisor. Note well I also had to now leave early to avoid traffic as I live an hour from the University off campus. (Had I been aiming to arrive at 7 I probably still would have arrived a bit early but upon arrival I would not have manufactured a 'list'. Also, note well that I managed to obtain my first choice supervisor so I am not jealous. I am simply able to see that lots of my fellow students got screwed! If I and all the other students off campus had created a queue and a 'list' the day before at about 5pm I wonder what all those people who turned up at 8pm would be saying?? The fact is I am not as pathetic and 'idiotic' to do such a thing. And to suggest that I cannot read is ridiculous considering I have spotted the one thing 'idiotic' girls could not spot which is and I quote ''''Please do not arrive before 7'''' Many Thanks Chan

I do not know you but I found myself worrying for you. You did not get the supervisor you wanted and you can not write English properly, I wonder where that leaves you with your dissertation. As a law student your writing is an important tool just as much as surgical instruments are to a surgeon. Your English is sub-standard for a level 3 student and for your information, you DO NOT write small letter I where it appears alone in a sentence. May be you should not go to bed after all, work on polishing your writing skills.

Stop the comments now. I think the points have been made clearly and the arguments put foward by those who feel hard done by are very strong. There are obviously some problems. The comments from those who did not get supervisors or from those who queued for long hours and also from those who lived quite far away and hadnt received the messages that the queue had already begun do not argue about it anymore. You are now acting as bad as the people who begun the queue really early. Just let it go. I am pretty sure the majority of you are more intelligent than those who queued really early which is why deep down you yourselves did not queue really really early. But by doing this, you are showing some desperation. I am sure all of you will probably obtain the best marks anyway. Let this initial setback motivate you to do better than the others. x factor tommorrow ethan better get through!

WELL DONE MRS RODRIGUES!

is there a difference between using a back door to access the building (Why was this open? didnt the email imply students would be allowed to enter the building after 7?) and queuing up at 8pm the day before?? both methods are quite tactful, to an extent unknown, ridiculous and are devious. hmmmmmmmm...... Anyone who got passed the queue and to my mind there were a good number that cleverly did .......they did a great job!!! I got my supervisor of choice as well......happy times........I didnt even queue haha....got to love first come first served.........and ha I even had my name on the list to evade any problems........after seeing a few individuals fail in their bid due to this...... Law is all about solving problems. If your not willing to do it, then it is not the job for you :-))))

to the above poster.....I actually agree with you. well done mate......your the real derren brown...... care to share how u did this.....i heard 5 or 6 people managed to evade the queue and submit proposals

I didn't learn much from this article, except that Brunel's law students all appear to be illiterate. Rubbish uni? Check. No command of the English language? Check. Law career in the pipeline? Epic fail.

Whereas I learnt that the above poster is an ignorant and arrogant fool. Don't be too quick to assume your passage into the legal field is guaranteed.

I read the articlewith dismay. Call me a conspiracy theorist if you want - but the way that Dimitrios has been picked out for criticism is VERY suspicious. None of us students knows that he had anything to do with the current system, and, no-one in our class that I know would seek to tarnish his reputation in this way. He is such a lovely, lovely guy. That raises the question - who is the mole (perhaps a jealous colleague?), and what is his or her agenda? The Times Higher Education should be made to reveal their sources. Heh, this could be an interesting seminar topic - whether the Times Higher Education be forced to disclose their sources! Wouldn't it be so, so interesting to know the identity of this mole!

"UCLstudent" and "Mrs Rodgriues", perhaps you are among those privileged few with broadband conections at home and can take your time to write, edit, correct, etc., before posting. Some people in the real world can only use internet cafes and are in a rush, so the luxuries of having all the time in the world that you two seem to enjoy (e.g., to focus on correct grammar and punctuation) are not enjoyed by some of our mates. Get off your high horses!

i'm a brunel final year law student with a training contract with linklaters so if you think the university actually matters your wrong! In fact, there were two ucl students at the assessment centre and they were absolutely stupid. Yes ucl is a great university and brunel is not in terms of league tables but in reality it means nothing because most of us still get to the interviews for training contracts! Also you probably only got in to that university because you did random a levels or re took your as level/a level modules about 4 times in june and january before you obtained your final grade.

the fact that this individual wrote 'epic fail' just highlights that he speaks like a private school twat

As a future employer I am absolutely disgusted by some of the readers’ comments. Some of the reader’s of this article attend the same university and will be graduating in the same year. How could you use this forum to publicly humiliate yourself, colleagues and most of all your professors? Some of you have got personal by referring to your fellow colleagues as “idiotic”, “fat” and “silly”. I suggest if you have a problem with certain individuals then speak to them personally, you might think that once leaving university you will never see them again, you are wrong. Please solve your differences privately rather than displaying your dirty washing publicly.

this story is a fabrication. None of this actually happened. The atmosphere was fun and enjoyable. This is a great example of what lies can cause

This is all so interesting, but an absolute waste of space! The fact is that nobody knows who is commenting here. Anyone from anywhere in the world can write a comment, and pretend to be anyone. There is no moderation, and NO VERIFICATION OF IDENTITY. I am not a Brunel person, but I can write a comment here! And, worse, I can write ANYTHING I WANT! AND I AM ABOUT TO DO SO!!! How many of these alleged "Brunel students" or" academics" are just spotty teenagers from Asia, Latin America, Scotland, China, Germany, Turkey, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, or Armenia? This website has ABSOLUTELY NO CREDIBILITY. Without a proper system of a IDENTIFICATION OF COMMENTATORS, you are all WASTING YOUR TIME AND VALUABLE INTERNET BANDWIDTH! You all should go and do something more useful with your time. TO THE TIMES: either institute a proper system of identification, or stop wasting readers' times! Having this kind of stupid commentary system is a cheap and nasty form of self-publicity. The system CAN BE ABUSED SO EASILY, AND IS OBVIOUSLY BEING ABUSED.

Hey, let's discuss something more interesting. Who will win the X Factor?

if ethan makes it through, he will win. If he doesn't then possibly one of the girls again

Ethan will fall!

Easy, easy tired I seem to have hit a nerve. You alliterate my point exactly, what were you doing there at 6 o’clock? Maybe just maybe those “idiotic girls” you refer to believe that good things come to those who wait.

To the Times Higher Bullshit Supplement: If you really want to know what happened come to Antonin Artaud Building AA001 at 3pm on Monday.

You really can't be a student at this esteemed institution. They wouldn't admit such an arrogant snob as you, would they ?

It's a wonder how people can write articles without getting the accurate facts - this system was in place when I was in my final year from 2006-2007, so Dimitrios did not create this system... terrible journalism. Anyway, the year I queued, we all arrived between 1-2 hours early and there was no panic or fights or criticism of our university. Simply because we all recognised that whilst it would be nice to get our preferred topic and therefore preferred tutor, at the end of the day our results were down to ourselves. The role of a supervisor is in the name, they are not going to do the work for the student. The students who felt the need to queue up so early are not "dedicated law students", they are students who are afraid of their own abilities or to put in the work. A dedicated law student is one who accepts they may not get their first choice and is well PREPARED for that and the work they will have to do, afterall, that is the point of a dissertation. If the same system worked fine in my year, then quite obviously it is this years students that have been the cause for any problems, (which appear to be exaggerated anyway). I would also point out that some of the negative comments about the lecturers are very disrespectful, they are lecturers for a reason. Alexandra Xanthaki, Dimitrios and all the lecturers who taught me and my fellow students were absolutely wonderful. They deserve better than to be commented on in inaccurate articles.

You are Alexandra Xanthaki and I claim my five pounds.

*tuts* Lawyers!

*tuts* Journalists!

That is possibly the most pathetic article I have ever read and the comments are even more ridiculous! BRUNEL IS A FANTASTIC UNIVERSITY, it is however unfortunate that some of the year 3 students this year are too immature to be able to behave in the queue properly but Brunel cannot be blamed for this, they did not ask that they begin queing at 8pm the night before, that is ridiculous! My year were able to behave in the que and we did not behave like animals! What is more, it does NOT matter which supervisor you get, your dissertation is the responsiblity of YOU and only YOU, you could have the best supervisor and fail or the worse supervisor and obtain the top marks! But really and truely all of the staff at Brunel are experts in their fields and are all very educated people and so should NOT be insulted. The supervisors are just there to GUIDE you and if you do not see that, the other supervisors who may be more specialist in the area are always there to assist you with your work even if they are not your disseration supervisor!!! It is not Brunel that needs to change but the attitude of the year 3 students there!!! It is NOT the staffs fault that you are all too stupid to see that it is your own work that will get you the grades and not the supervisor you have!! so STOP blaming the Law School and the fantastic staff there and take your responsibility for your dissertation yourself and maybe you will get somewhere!!! I speak from experience and due to my OWN hard work I graduated with a 1st at brunel, although the help the law school provided me as a whole was invaluable, in the end of the day it was down to my OWN hard work and because IIIIIIIIIIII took responsibility SO GROW UP AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN WORK AND DON'T BLAME IT ON THE SUPERVISOR YOU HAVE!!

As a parent of one of the girls that was actually there from 7pm I am going to speak out! My daughter was very dissapointed when she didn't get any of her choices for her final modules so in order to make the best of her final year she chose to queue early to ensure she got a tutor that she would find motivating and inspire her in areas that were not even her second choices! So it is not just the allocation of dissertation tutors that needs looking at it is also ensuring students get to study the modules they prefer!

I'm not a Brunel student, or Law School staff, I'm just a nosy busybody who doesn't really give a monkeys. What I'm wondering is - if people weren't expected to start queueing until 7am, then where did the security staff come from? Who took the decision to authorise the overtime for the security staff to marshal a queue that wasn't supposed to happen in the first place? It's ridiculous! *Someone* must have known about it beforehand! So that's why I think the "you weren't supposed to be there until after 7am" line is BS. And saying that the people who were there the night before are idiots is sour grapes. If you weren't there early enough, that's too bad. I'm assuming you don't have a right of appeal - but even so, if you *really* don't like your supervisor allocation, you could always defer for a year, and try again next year. Fingers crossed, the system will have changed by then anyway.

And people can't agree what happened in a queue....? No because it's about more than this... it's about universities and what they are becoming....

Actually Fred the security staff at Brunel work there 24hours a day, so no over time was authorised, they were probably alerted that there was some commotion going on outside the law building so thought that they would go there to ensure that the matter is under control. They work there 24 hours a day as many students live on campus and often require there services, when there is any trouble they arrive in minutes after a phone call to them.

Actually Fred the security staff at Brunel work there 24hours a day, so no over time was authorised, they were probably alerted that there was some commotion going on outside the law building so thought that they would go there to ensure that the matter is under control. They work there 24 hours a day as many students live on campus and often require there services, when there is any trouble they arrive in minutes after a phone call to them.

Hi Melanie I was one of the students who camped outside the Law Office at Brunel University for my dissertation choice. The problem wasn't only caused by Brunel's "first come, first served" system. It was caused by students who chose to disregard the rules. We were told not to come before 7 am otherwise we would be turned away, however security was to blame. They were useless, they did not uphold their warning and as a result students siezed the oppourtunity to camp outside the law office to secure their dissertation choice. When news broke people travelled from as far as Barking to camp outside the building. The students who came first took it upon themselves to make a list as to who would be seen first. Do you blame them though. Btw who are the big five lectureres that everyone wanted?

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