Online, Oxbridge drops off the radar as there's little 'buzz' about it

Well, it's nice that these, <cough>, "Universities" finally have a league table that they're "good" at.

Alex, your bitterness does you no credit.

Cambridge and Oxford are "near the top in university rankings"? In every UK university league table with which I'm familiar, the two ancient universities are at the very top.

I agree with Bob; Alex, get over yourself.

"Just one poor review or a single antagonistic blog could make a significant difference to whether a university attracts the numbers - and quality - of students it requires." <p>I can just see those Oxbridge wannabees suddenly reapplying to Leeds Metropolitan and Sheffield Hallam. <p>This article is just plain silly, and the survey is a blatant attempt to drum up business by Portfolio Communications. My University languishes at roughly the same place as Oxbridge in these tables, but we have no problem in attracting large numbers of students with excellent A level grades, and more overseas students than we can shake a stick at.

Having studied at the University of Chichester, i can say that any 'buzz' about the place is false. It's the most dis-organised organisation i have ever been too! <p>It portrays itself as a modern university but rarely utilises modern technology!

What a silly sausage story! Ignoring Oxbridge, let's make note of the number of other Russell Group universities in the table. Oh the answer is none, I wonder why? Oh yes, they are working towards a quality degree rather than indulging in self-promotional tactics on the internet.

You would hope that many universities would hope that they appear the bottom of this league, as that would indicate that an excellent opportunity to gather honest feedback on their services. However, I suspect the knee-jerk response from the more naive in HE marketing will be to try to manage online reputation, which really defeats the object of social media. If your 'product' is rubbish, improve the product, and don't try to silence the truth. <p>And, on reflection, perhaps the fact that positive coverage exists of institutions that fare less well in the traditional league tables tells us more about league table mentality. I've persuaded myself this is a good story! Keep it up!

I suppose you could see this as some sort of promotional tool for the 'lesser' universities, but I think you'd be falling into a trap if you did. For smaller universities, who struggle on the league tables, gauging opinion about themselves as an institution is a necessity. <p>I'm at Goldsmiths, and there is a great community and a massive artistic output, something which no league table will ever tell you, but creates an honest buzz online. <p>Oxbridge don't have all the answers you know.

As another Goldsmiths student, I've got to agree wholeheartedly with Simon - I had the choice and the grades to go to Sussex, which is 'statistically' a 'better' university, but preferred Goldsmiths for actually living up to its reputation. <p>And incidentally, Miffed, Goldsmiths is part of the University of London so it is in fact a Russell Group university. So I'm quite looking forward to my 'quality degree' when I finish my course, even in the eyes of blinkered snobs such as yourself.

Laurie - Goldsmiths is not a Russell Group member.

As another Goldsmiths student, who went to the university because of the reputation, I have to say that I find this whole article completely stupid. They only used 4000 webpages (with no explanation of which 4000 they used) to gather the data, that is a miniscule amount in terms of the web and therefore hardly representative. <p>As for all the people going on about Russell Group...you do come over rather elitist.

As a student at Liverpool Hope and Now at Liverpool John Moores, I can honestly state there is a huge difference between these institutions and I firmly believe that Liverpool Hope should be given far more credit that it has. and for those of us who are mature students, who have full time jobs and families, I found everything I wanted and needed almost on my doorstep. This is a university that I would happily recommend to peers, family and friends. If you want the oxford or Cambridge 'look' it's right there at Liverpool Hope!

Oxford and Cambridge seem to have done quite well for themselves without the internet.

As a current student of Liverpool Hope University i can honestly state that the above reviews are all absolutely wrong. As a business student i have found that this uni has the worst infrastructure, very poor IT department and worst of all they take students in for money .Money is what matters for them. 90% of the students in business studies are from pakistan and they do not even have the prescribed eligibility criteria like IELTS and a minimum of 3 years of work experience. All of them work as security and they don’t even turn up for lectures. The rest of the 5 % are from other countries and are of the same level. The final 5% are the only people with at least some knowledge and experience. Have a second thought about studying at Liverpool Hope university for Business studies.

If you want to go to a good university consult official review tables for information. As a student of Hope, I find it amusing that my university would not release any information to the Times official table, it says a lot.

There is nothing worse than people who think that Oxbridge are the only universities with credibility. True, some are a jok,e but others thrive in their own way. Everybody who tries deserves a chance, those who don't try shouldn't even do A-Levels to be honest. I myself, have applied to universities including Sheffield hallam, Goldsmiths and Nottinghjam Trent (nice to see the top 3 on the blogs section!) because snotty and up-themselves universities don't have the variety and interest to do my course as it is Design technology with Secondary Education. maybe its not good enough for them, as all their graduates become big-shots, not teachers??? Oh, except the IT teacher at the neighbour school who is a pole-dancer in her spare time because her degree in latin from oxford wasnt much use. shame that.

Interesting discussion... I stumbled across it quite by chance. Anyway as a former Goldsmiths student and current doctoral candidate at another London based educational establishment I cannot resist responding! Indeed no, Goldsmiths is not part of the Russell Group despite belonging to the University of London. But come on people... do you seriously believe that the Russell Group itself constitutes anything more than a 'promotional tool'?! Those of you who clearly cling to some fairly outdated and rigid ideas about the ways in which the quality of educational experience might best be assessed... your argument has a real stench of hypocrisy about it. Shame on you.

Lucy, I don't understand: there seems to be a nonsequitor in your argument. You refer to "the IT teacher at the neighbour school who is a pole-dancer in her spare time because her degree in latin from oxford wasnt much use." Why should she need to do pole-dancing to make ends meet if she's an IT teacher? Maybe she does it mostly for kicks, or is simply incapable of living within her means. If I were earning a teacher's wage I certainly wouldn't need to be moonlighting as anything else to make up a shortfall in wages! If you're a Design Technology teacher, presumably earning the same as the poor, struggling IT teacher with the useless Oxford degree, does that mean you find it equally hard on your wages and have to do a part-time job too? Because the only difference you've highlighted between you and her is that she went to Oxford and you didn't. Presumably secondary school teaching pays the same regardless of where you studied, what you teach and how 'useless' your degree is.

There are a number of flaws in what Lucy says. I am rather confused about the IT teacher working part-time as a pole dancer. First, Lucy ought to know that there is no such thing as a degree in Latin from Oxford. Rather, Latin may be studied as part of several different degrees, such as Literae Humaniores, a Joint School with Classics, or Classical Archaeology and Ancient History. Secondly, I wonder why a classicist is teaching IT; surely the school would do better to emply a graduate with a relevant degree. Thirdly, I can only endorse what has already been observed: that Oxford graduates are not paid less than other teachers, so the fact that this woman was educated at Oxford can have no bearing on her decision to work as a pole dancer. I wonder whether this woman exists at all. As an Oxford graduate myself, I should be surprised if anybody at Oxford thought that teaching was an unsuitable profession for a highly educated person. I only wish that more graduates of our best universities would enter the teaching profession, and that they would teach in comprehensive schools rather than public schools and grammar schools. One hopes that all graduates of Oxford and Cambridge gain from their education at the world's best universities a sense of the sanctity of knowledge. The transmission of knowledge to succeeding generations is therefore a precious vocation. Lucy's first point raises the question of the purpose of the university. Some of us believe that the university ought to be a place dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge 'whether or not it serves the slightest human use' (A.E. Housman). Institutions like Oxford and Cambridge serve this purpose very well. But if one's ambition is to be a secondary school teacher specialising in design technology, Oxford or Cambridge would not seem like an obvious choice. The question, then, is whether it is appropriate to call these other institutions universities. To suggest that they ought not to be called universities is not to undermine the excellent work that they do. But if an institution is a first-rate teacher-training college or technical college, why make it into a second-rate university? One could even question whether a degree ought to be awarded on completion of a course that is really vocational. Just how is a BSc (Hons) in Culinary Arts Management from Thames Valley University a remotely similar thing to a BA (Hons) in Literae Humaniores from Oxford?

this is what is hapening too me Love ..... Because I think Um falling in Love ya I'm falling in love........With Selena Gomez

I actually think that the focus of the article was not so much to judge the standards of particular universities based on the amount of buzz created but rather to point out than contrary to what most would think, smaller universities are creating a bigger buzz then the established names like Oxford and Cambridge. That said, it would be going a little too far in saying that the difference in buzz would affect students' decisions when choosing between two schools with a huge difference in reputation, e.g. Cambridge and Leeds Metropolitan. However as a prospective first year student going through the process of school selection, I'd admit that what other sources are saying about schools significantly affects my decisions. Why? Because when choosing between schools of similiar standards, its hard to differentiate schools based on their websites since these websites tend to say very similiar things. This is especially the case when it comes to American schools, which mostly claim to have a "multi-disciplinary, broad-based approach" with a "world-class faculty". How then, is one to differentiate between two Ivies like Brown and Dartmouth? Other than reputation, which hardly differentiates the two, secondary sources like blogs and forums, along with the traditional word-of-mouth, are the next best factors to consider.

Finally a sensible and well-articulated response - well done Joseph.

I think its beneficial for education throughout the country that universities other than the oxbridge two get some credit for what they are good at.

Goldsmiths is an anamoly even in the London University cluster of colleages and arguably the least reputed one in a majority of areas. I cannot say how it is not as fuller a constituent college as say Royal Holloway, but a friend of mine some time ago gave me the specific differences and hence I have put it as anamoly. May be some one else can elighten me. The 20 members of the Russell Group: * University of Birmingham * University of Bristol * University of Cambridge * Cardiff University * University of Edinburgh * University of Glasgow * Imperial College London * King's College London * University of Leeds * University of Liverpool * London School of Economics & Political Science * University of Manchester * Newcastle University * University of Nottingham * Queen's University Belfast * University of Oxford * University of Sheffield * University of Southampton * University College London * University of Warwick

If you are thinking of buying a car you do not simply take the manufacturer’s word for it, you go to [something like] Parkers.co.uk for both professional and customer reviews. Before you book a hotel, you check out Tripadvisor.com to see what previous guests had to say. One blog about bad service at Dell created a near–crippling scenario for the computer vendor – and a new phrase for the dictionary, ‘Dell–Hell’. Barack Obama’s successful presidential campaign was partially financed by contributions garnered from online marketing, and good slice of that success came from his team’s use of the social media. The likes of Oxford may have reputations built over 100s of years, but for many ‘like–for–like’ universities their future reputation will rise or fall in online chat rooms, MySpace, FaceBook and the like. Yes, Portfolio Communications has an agenda (full marks to them for their PR efforts) but anyone who thinks that a hard–copy glossy prospectus and its reproduction online is enough for digital–age students is sadly mistaken (Joseph is right, delete the establishments' names and every prospectus/website looks the same). Sure, the potential student chooses a programme they like from said prospectus, but then there are 50 universities offering the same course – with the same entry requirements. So they narrow it down to half a dozen in locations they fancy. So how do they pick the one? They will pick it from the feel they get for the place. The buzz. The views of folk who are there, and those who have been there recently. They check out the nightlife. The security/safety issues. They try to decide which university is 'them'. And guess what, they do it online – and I do not mean at the .ac.uk website. Welcome to social media marketing – if it can elect presidents and sell cars it can influence a student’s choice of university.

OK, in response to these 'loopholes' in my arguement, the teacher who is a pole-dancer, yeah, shes an IT teacher, who dont earn anywhere near as much as DT teachers in most schools. Figure that, particulaly as most of the schools in the local area where i live are awarded grants for the Design excellence. However, in the future this won't be possible as "red-brick" universities don't have the scope to do courses such as Design Technology which are anywhere near half as good as universities such as Edge Hill or Nottingham Trent. And Christopher, i'm not her stalker, she did Latin with another subject then, but all i know is she did latin. Then, she realised her degree was useles so did a teaching degree in IT, therefore the school didn't hire someone who didn't have the unnecessary qualifications. And judging bysome of the comments left on this page, people who got teaching degrees at Oxbridge 9such a thing exist) then they wouldn't dream of teaching at a comprehensive schoo. It would most likely be straight to the private or public schools for them. The pole-dancer/teacher only taught at a comprehensive as she discovered how useless latin really can be. Care to give an example of how latin is used in everyday life, or can really enhance your career? And this is for normal people, like the average person; because i certainly don't, and i don't know a single person who does.

Alan, i think that is the best point i have read on this page so far. Because that is exactly what 95% of uni applicants do. The other 5% are too up-themselves to care its Oxbridge for them and thats it.

I very much doubt that this teacher's degree was 'useless', as Lucy says that it is. A person with one of the Oxford degrees that include Latin ought to be qualified to do a wide range of jobs. I wonder whether Lucy knows what class her degree was. I suppose if she got a Third it's possible that she found it impossible to get a graduate level job. But if she got a First or a 2.1 I should have thought that she could have walked into any number of jobs. I suspect that there are other factors of which Lucy is unaware, including, perhaps, the possibility that she really wanted to teach IT. As a point of information, there was indeed a Bachelor of Education degree awarded by the University of Oxford, but the course is no longer validated by the university, so the only teaching qualification awarded by Oxford is the PGCE. Cambridge does offer a degree in Education, but this is an academic degree and not a teaching qualification. I think that Lucy's belief that Latin can be useless, and her challenge to show how it can be useful in everyday life or can enhance one's career, demonstrates the fact that she and I have very different ideas about the nature of education. I think that Lucy would ask much the same question about many disciplines. A vocational education is training for a specific job. An academic education, on the other hand, provides transferable skills. I know classics graduates who have become professional classicists; I also know classics graduates who have gone on to careers in law, librarianship, music, the Civil Service, the Army, and the Church. Likewise, most philosophy graduates do not become philosophers. They become lawyers, bankers, economists, strategy consultants, and singers. But more importantly, Latin is worth studying for its own sake. Perhaps I could restate the quotation from Housman: 'All knowledge is precious whether or not it serves the slightest human use'. Alan Bennett, by means of whose play The History Boys the Housman quotation has gained renewed popularity, has written that, 'Knowledge...has nothing to do with getting on.' Knowledge of Latin (among other languages) is essential to understanding western civilization, and that civilization is worth understanding for its own sake. The study of Latin is particularly helpful in the learning of languages. If one has studied Latin the learning of any Romance language will be very much easier. It is also provides the most rigorous training in grammar, and explains the etymologies of many English words, which explains why classicists are unusually competent in the use of their own first language. I think that Lucy has failed to understand the points made by Joseph and Alan. They are making the point that most universities are "like-for-like"; that applicants choose a type of university to which they wish to apply and that they make their choices from among universities of that type. So it has nothing to do with 5 percent of applicants being 'too up-themselves' to consider any university other than Oxford or Cambridge. The point is that a student is very rarely choosing between Oxford and Thames Valley. The student is far more likely to be choosing between Oxford and Cambridge, UCL and Manchester, or Thames Valley and Bedfordshire. That is when the online buzz begins to matter.

I am confused: responses to this article are not appearing in the order in which they were posted, which means that they are unlikely to be read, as people surely scroll to the end to see the latest comment, if it is a story they have been following.

OK, Christopher, i do have some responses here. I do not have a third class degree, as i am a univeristy applicant, and currently doing interviews (in fact, about to leave in, oh, 10 minutes?). So therefore, yes, i do not have a degree, but my necessary research into universities has really given me some strong opinions! Haha. Also, all these jobs you listed off, none of them use latin all the time, i've never heard of a 'latinist' or a latin translator. Yes, i understand it is useful when learning where the English language (amongst others) orginates from, but i'm sure less than 0.1% of the population need that everyday in their jobs. And, I beg to differ about your point with chjoosing certain types of universities, as I have applied to Sheffield Hallam, but i have also applied to UCL. And got interviews at both. So, actually, it isn't always about certain types of university. Oh, and, have you seen how prejudice and stereotypical you are with your responses? Instantly assuming i had a third class degree, and insinuating that i would have this lower-class degree from a "lesser" university (which excel in many different ways, not to mention can actualy be very good) is not exactly the best way to argue your point. Get your facts right first maybe?

Dear Lucy, Christopher did not insinuate you might have a third class degree, because can follow an argument. He was conjecturing that your stripper's Latin degree might be useless to her if her grade is a third. I would expect a future teaching professional to pay a bit more attention to detail than you have done in reading Christopher's response. May I just say that having their children taught by teachers whose written English is as poor as yours is many parents' nightmare. But, as a university applicant, you have another 3 years or more to brush up on it. Good luck in your studies and in finding a fulfilling career in your chosen field.

Thank you, Teacher, for clarifying my argument. I did indeed mean that the IT teacher, classicist, and pole dancer, may have had a third-class degree, not Lucy. Lucy, I think that you have failed to understand my point. For your information, there is such a thing as a Latinist, but there are not many of them. What there are rather more of are people whose daily lives are enhanced by the Latin that they have learnt. There are many degrees that are of little direct vocational value. Parts of a law degree, even, are of little use to a lawyer. A barrister specialising in construction probably makes little use of his or her Roman law and jurisprudence papers, but these things do enhance his or her life. Classics is not a useful degree in the way that dentistry is, but then neither are English, history, history of art, theology, anthropology, or many other disciplines. The Oxford classics degree is called Literae Humaniores - the more humane letters; its purpose is to civilize, not to train one for a particular job. I wish you well in your applications :-)

I believe that you're all wrong. Media studies is the way forward. Nick Balm

Hmm, 'Teacher' interesting point you make about my English being poor, as on the internet, yes my typing can be a little 'off'. This is because I have better things to do than spend my life on the computer, I concentrate on Design technology, not ICT. To be honest, what i am not understanding from Christopher or 'Teacher' is how they cannot appreciate that other universities can do well in some league tables, clearly Oxford and Cambridge have world renowned qualities which enable many students onto a better career, but other universities such as Nottingham Trent University (which happens to be my firm choice with SHU as the insurance as when i looked around UCL - and got an offer i may add - i thought it was nowhere near as good as the more modern universities) have qualities that Oxbridge cannot compare with. And this is shown in this article, and i think it's completely wrong that you should take any glory away from universities which are giving people a fantastic career without having to go to Oxbridge.

an article/result like this make me happy to go to university knowing that its not all about acdameic stuff like league tables, i am also proud to say that i am a student at Goldsmiths

So long as they can convince university applicants that being a secondary school teacher equates to a fantastic career, the ruling elite have nothing to worry about: they remain secure in their power and privilege and keep the best jobs for themselves, and the status quo stays unchallenged.

one day were all going to die and it wont matter what university we went to. lol

cardiff is a russell group uni miffed get your facts right